zeldathemes
BLEEDING HEART SOCIOPATH
Fandom is my anti-drug.
Community, Human Target, Doctor Who, Being Human, Dead Like Me, Deadwood, and so on.

Oh god, why isn’t there more Richard/Door fic, and Neverwhere fic in general? Writing my paper on Neverwhere and The Graveyard Book just filled my with Richard/Door feels and I NEED FIC.

  #neverwhere    #richard x door    #door x richard  
I want to thank you for your very well spoken argument against calling everyone who ships OQ or CS and not SQ homophobic. I don't like CS, but I love OQ because Lana and Sean just have insane chemistry. My dislike of SQ has nothing to do with homophobia. I've just never been into fanon couples (I don't know, maybe my imagination just sucks). I don't like Sleeping Hook, or Tinkerfire, or Regina/Rumple, or any other fanon ship either.

Anonymous

Well, you’re very welcome! I just don’t see how labeling an entire group as one thing can ever be remotely helpful. Complaints about how “individualizing and issue makes it easier to dismiss” are pretty silly to me because that problem can be solved just by simple rewording of such a statement. “ “The prevalence of people refusing to acknowledge or understand why people ship Swan Queen might show a tendency toward latent homophobia within the fandom” is a much better reasoned argument than “everyone who ships OQ/CS but don’t like SQ are homophobes”, and it much more likely to inspire actual thought and consideration of the topic. The latter statement just dismisses an entire group of people, lumping all of them together under one umbrella, and that’s never a good thing. It’s never productive toward any argument. Especially when, as the conversation continued, the claimant continued to reduce the group she was talking about by saying, “Well, I wasn’t talking about all people who ship OQ/CS” and “Well, I wasn’t talking about all people who don’t understand how anyone can ship SQ.” Whether she realized it or not, by her own admission, her original statement was flawed.

She was very respectful, though, and I thank her for that. I’ve experienced a great many SQers attacking me and twisting my words around, which is insane to me, considering I don’t even have a problem with SQ.

what have you got to say about the people who are talking about how hook's innuendos and sexual come ons are fine because some women like that, and the people who are even saying it's wrong to criticize that because its kink shaming?

Anonymous

I know there can be an argument made about the mere fact that people like that behavior or think it’s acceptable in a relationship shows the latent sexism of our society and the passive acceptance of gender roles in which men are expected to be aggressive and women are meant to be accepting of it.

But I won’t get into that because (1) other people are handling that side of the argument just fine and (2) that’s not really my overall problem with it. My issues come from more of a character analysis standpoint.

If they portrayed it as Emma actually being receptive to his innuendos, to his behavior, I probably wouldn’t be so bothered by it. I wouldn’t like it, because that’s not the kind of relationship I like, but I might not see it as an inherent flaw in the portrayal of the characters and the relationship.

But the problem is, Emma has not been shown to be receptive of such advances. She has not been shown to like it. She has not been shown to be flattered by it. 

And a great deal of this behavior from Hook came when he and Emma were at odds, were enemies. It wasn’t him flirting because he was interested in her romantically. It wasn’t him flirting because he was in love with her. At most he was doing it because he was interested in her sexually. His aggression was about power. And it wasn’t just verbal. It was frequently physical. The moment on top of the beanstalk when he was holding her against her will as she was struggling to get away from him (a moment which a lot of CSers will use time and again in gifsets and remove the context, creatively editing to make it look like a romantic embrace, which I find incredibly disturbing). Him pinning her to the ground during their fight on the beach, having the physical upperhand, and making a rape joke, which can easily be interpreted as an actual thread. 

And even when they’ve been on the same side, she hasn’t been shown to be receptive to it or like it. As with a great deal of her interactions, Emma’s reactions to Hook’s innuendos and come-ons range from complete apathy to absolute annoyance.

So, no, this has not been presented as a woman enjoying these innuendos and this behavior. Not even in the slightest. 

  #anti cs    #anti captain swan  
  #jeff x annie  
  #jeff x annie  

schmacky:

missanneeliot:

schmacky:

badasswan:

badasswan:

badasswan:

onceandfuturekiki:

badasswan:

Let me just put a thought out there:

Not shipping Swan Queen is NOT homophobic.

But now, not shipping Swan Queen and shipping CS and OQ, that are basically a heterosexual (and underdeveloped) version of Swan Queen, (or…

But the thing when you talk about a social group, if you individualize stuff, as in saying, for example, “not every person that ships het ships and don’t ship femslash ships is homophobic” is that you give space for people to say “I’M NOT LIKE THAT!!!” And then it ends up that the whole thing is dismissed.

Yes, not everybody is the same, yes, logic can’t be applied equally to every individual, but the thing is, I’m not talking about individual opinions or individual people. I’m talking about a group of people, as in an identity in a social situation, because let’s be honest, fandom is a social place and it reflects all societal values that are regent today.

We have to take into consideration that not always what comes with that identification (as in “I’m a CS shipper” or “I only ship canon ships”) might apply to everyone in that group, but they’re still inside the group. For example, I’m a woman. Do I fit into every assumption that is made for women? Am I what society accepts as a woman? Sometimes yes, sometimes no.

But that’s where I come to it. What I said was that people who accept het pairings and can’t see femslash pairings are homophobes. In your example with your friend, you were talking about people that ship femslash pairings that are canon (which, let’s be real, is hard because of the lack of femslash pairings when compared to het pairings), but still, we’re talking about people that ship femslash. I was talking about people who refuse the existence of it and call it a crack ship, just because it’s not canon.

What is a crack ship?

My understanding of a crack ship is that it’s a fanfiction pairing that would in all probability never occur on the show. An example might be Pongo and Jiminy Cricket, or Granny and Graham. And just to identify my own subset in this discussion, I don’t ship OQ or Captain Swan precisely because of the similar dynamic to SwanQueen. I vehemently dislike the idea that the villians get to suddenly be woobified because they’re “in love”, so we are just supposed to develop amnesia about all the horrific actions they’ve taken when they haven’t taken responsibility for any of them.

Alright. So, from that understanding, couldn’t Swan Queen be classified as a crack ship? If the creators stated they have no intention of Emma and Regina having a romantic relationship and people come to the conclusion that it’s a crack ship, then how is that a bad thing to say? Or insinuate? If others do not agree with that then that is their prerogative. It doesn’t make the other people homophobic or rude or disrespectful towards the SQ ship. It’s a difference of opinion. 

The term ‘crack ship’ causes a lot of ire in people because there is no firm definition of it. Some people use it simply as another word for fanon, some people use it strictly for completely ridiculous ships like Hook/Floor, and some people use it as a negative definition, as an insult. So someone will see their ship being called a crackship and thing, “Yeah, it totally is” and someone else will see their ship being called a crackship and get offended. 

badasswan:

badasswan:

badasswan:

onceandfuturekiki:

badasswan:

Let me just put a thought out there:

Not shipping Swan Queen is NOT homophobic.

But now, not shipping Swan Queen and shipping CS and OQ, that are basically a heterosexual (and underdeveloped) version of Swan Queen, (or…

But the thing when you talk about a social group, if you individualize stuff, as in saying, for example, “not every person that ships het ships and don’t ship femslash ships is homophobic” is that you give space for people to say “I’M NOT LIKE THAT!!!” And then it ends up that the whole thing is dismissed.

Yes, not everybody is the same, yes, logic can’t be applied equally to every individual, but the thing is, I’m not talking about individual opinions or individual people. I’m talking about a group of people, as in an identity in a social situation, because let’s be honest, fandom is a social place and it reflects all societal values that are regent today.

We have to take into consideration that not always what comes with that identification (as in “I’m a CS shipper” or “I only ship canon ships”) might apply to everyone in that group, but they’re still inside the group. For example, I’m a woman. Do I fit into every assumption that is made for women? Am I what society accepts as a woman? Sometimes yes, sometimes no.

But that’s where I come to it. What I said was that people who accept het pairings and can’t see femslash pairings are homophobes. In your example with your friend, you were talking about people that ship femslash pairings that are canon (which, let’s be real, is hard because of the lack of femslash pairings when compared to het pairings), but still, we’re talking about people that ship femslash. I was talking about people who refuse the existence of it and call it a crack ship, just because it’s not canon.

I guess this where we’ll just have to agree to disagree, because I think it’s very reductive, insulting, and can even be dangerous to apply such broad distinctions to such a huge group of people. If you want to dig a little deeper and look beyond that large group to find subgroups to apply such an argument to. Because labeling such an huge group of people, who all come from different place, are of different ages, and have different experiences as one thing does absolutely no good for anyone. It’s an overly simplistic way too look at things. And anything that’s overly simplistic is never good.

I don’t know. Perhaps it’s just your wording. “The prevalence of people refusing to acknowledge or understand why people ship Swan Queen might show a tendency toward latent homophobia within the fandom” or “the general attitude that SQ isn’t a valid ship while CS and OQ, which have similar dynamics, are valid, shows an intolerance toward slash ships in the fandom” are thoughtful statements that make a fair point. “People who ship CS and OQ but don’t understand why people ship SQ are homophobic” is not. 

badasswan:

badasswan:

onceandfuturekiki:

badasswan:

Let me just put a thought out there:

Not shipping Swan Queen is NOT homophobic.

But now, not shipping Swan Queen and shipping CS and OQ, that are basically a heterosexual (and underdeveloped) version of Swan Queen, (or Rumbelle too…

Things are NEVER “regardless” of gender, just as things are never “regardless” of race.

I’m sorry if I wasn’t very clear in my intention with the post, but that was what I meant by it, people acknowledging heterosexual ships while dismissing very similar femslash ones. And it’s not even only in dynamics, because the characters themselves are very alike (Regina/Hook, Robin/Emma).

When I said regardless of gender, I didn’t mean that people who thought that way never do so because of gender. I meant that there are plenty of times when people will say “I just don’t see how anyone can ship this” about any ship, whether it’s F/F, M/M, or M/F. It happens in every fandom with every ship. Yes, some people will say such things because of race or gender. But people will also say such things because they simply refuse to accept opinions that disagree with theirs.

And yes, sometimes that inability to accept other people’s opinion is regardless of gender and race. You can’t just apply one line of thinking to every single person. Things aren’t that simple. 

I was once ridiculed by an online acquaintance of mine during a discussion we were having about slash ships. We had been bonding over our shared love for Joanie/Jane on Deadwood and Jack/Ianto on Torchwood, but when I brought up how fun I thought the idea of Rose/Amy on Doctor Who was, she went into a long rant about how ridiculous of an idea that was, how there was no way that could possibly be considered a ship and how she couldn’t imagine anyone ever shipping it. She was someone who exclusively shipped canon couples. Her refusal to acknowledge my ship had nothing to do with the fact that it was two women. It was just that I enjoyed shipping canon and she didn’t, and for whatever reason, she just couldn’t accept that someone didn’t agree with her opinion that canon ships were the only “legitimate” ones.

Yes, this anecdotal evidence, but if the one (and perhaps only) thing anecdotal evidence is good for is showing that one argument or mindset can’t be applied to every single person. People and their psychology and individual experiences is much more complicated than that.

badasswan:

onceandfuturekiki:

badasswan:

Let me just put a thought out there: 

Not shipping Swan Queen is NOT homophobic.

But now, not shipping Swan Queen and shipping CS and OQ, that are basically a heterosexual (and underdeveloped) version of Swan Queen, (or Rumbelle too could be included in this) is a bit homophobic, because it basically means that you like their dynamic, the idea of a villain with a hero, or better yet, you like the whole idea of “someone took something away from me and I couldn’t handle it well so I became evil” and a redemption for that person coming through love, you also like the idea that no one is either black or white and that love is a changing force, and we can basically argue that all the villains in the ships have hurt the other person (except for OQ). So, basically, the only difference between those ships is that they are TWO WOMEN. That leads us to believe that what you don’t like is the fact that they’re two women.  

I can’t stand CS and I’m annoyed with OQ in canon, but this is bullshit. It’s so unbelievably presumptuous. Stop acting as if you have a track into everyone’s minds, that you have some kind of insight into why people ship what they ship. Every single person is different and every single person ships differently and for different reasons. There are some people who only like to ship canon. Some people just don’t see any romantic chemistry between Emma and Regina but see it between Emma/Hook and Regina/Robin. And just because there’s a somewhat similar dynamic to the relationships doesn’t mean that they’re interchangeable. Acting like that does a huge disservice to the story and the characters’ backstories (and I say that as someone who thinks that the show’s writing is a pretty big mess, but there is enough there that the characters are distinguishable and, while some may be useless, they aren’t just interchangeable). 

So, no, thefact that SQ is two women is far from the only difference between those ships, and labeling anyone who ships OQ and/or CS as homophobic simply because they choose those of SQ is so single-minded, reductive, simplistic, and insulting. 

Ok, but homophobia and heteronormativity are two things that are really intricate in our society, and much like sexism and racism, are things that sometimes people don’t even realize they’re doing, but they go ahead and do it anyway. 

What I mean is that, if you basically can see the whole dynamic that exists between OQ and CS and NOT see the one that exists in SQ, you can see why people ship CS and OQ and NOT see why they ship SQ, that’s heteronormative as fuck. You might not realize you’re doing it, but you’re basically saying “all heterosexual pairings are valid, but I can’t even believe the possibility of a femslash one” 

I hate CS and OQ because I don’t think they are strong enough as a pairing and I hate what they did to the characters for them to fit that storyline. Now , do I see the appeal and why people ship it? Yes. Why? Because heterosexual pairings are the norm, and you can never deny they’re there. Now, a gay pairing is another story. 

Your original post didn’t say a single thing about people who say they “can’t see” why people would ship SQ. It wasn’t even implied. What you stated was that people who ship CS and/or OQ but not SQ are homophobic because there are similar dynamics at play (completely ignoring every single other thing about the characters and their story arcs).

If you’re going to amend your argument to people who refuse to acknowledge/see why people would ship SQ while shipping CS/OQ, then I wouldn’t necessarily disagree with you (though I still think it’s a somewhat reductive statement and that it likely has just as much to do with people refusing to understand or acknowledge opinions that aren’t in line with their own, as you’ll often also see people saying they don’t see why someone would ship any ship they don’t agree with, regardless of the genders of the characters).

badasswan:

Let me just put a thought out there: 

Not shipping Swan Queen is NOT homophobic.

But now, not shipping Swan Queen and shipping CS and OQ, that are basically a heterosexual (and underdeveloped) version of Swan Queen, (or Rumbelle too could be included in this) is a bit homophobic, because it basically means that you like their dynamic, the idea of a villain with a hero, or better yet, you like the whole idea of “someone took something away from me and I couldn’t handle it well so I became evil” and a redemption for that person coming through love, you also like the idea that no one is either black or white and that love is a changing force, and we can basically argue that all the villains in the ships have hurt the other person (except for OQ). So, basically, the only difference between those ships is that they are TWO WOMEN. That leads us to believe that what you don’t like is the fact that they’re two women.  

I can’t stand CS and I’m annoyed with OQ in canon, but this is bullshit. It’s so unbelievably presumptuous. Stop acting as if you have a track into everyone’s minds, that you have some kind of insight into why people ship what they ship. Every single person is different and every single person ships differently and for different reasons. There are some people who only like to ship canon. Some people just don’t see any romantic chemistry between Emma and Regina but see it between Emma/Hook and Regina/Robin. And just because there’s a somewhat similar dynamic to the relationships doesn’t mean that they’re interchangeable. Acting like that does a huge disservice to the story and the characters’ backstories (and I say that as someone who thinks that the show’s writing is a pretty big mess, but there is enough there that the characters are distinguishable and, while some may be useless, they aren’t just interchangeable). 

So, no, thefact that SQ is two women is far from the only difference between those ships, and labeling anyone who ships OQ and/or CS as homophobic simply because they choose those of SQ is so single-minded, reductive, simplistic, and insulting. 

  #ouat    #not really anti any ship    #more like    #anti assholes who can't stand people not agreeing with them